By Hank TrislerI was watching Billy Mays on his program, The Pitchmen, on the Discovery channel last night and found myself thinking, What an egotistical jerk. How can he possibly sell anything?
The obvious answer is, "Quite well, thank you." He displays all the empathy and caring of an Uzi, yet he's made millions just irritating the hell out of me and thousands of others.
A couple of fellows named Herbert Greenberg and Ronald Bern wrote a seminal volume called "The Successful Salesman, Man and His Manager" a lot of years ago. They set forth the concept that high levels of Ego Drive (the desire to win) and Empathy (understanding how another person feels) were essential to sales success. The Ego Drive, the fuel that powers the rocket and Empathy, the mechanism that steers the rocket to the target. They even developed an assement tool (read: test) to determine an applicant's level of Empathy and Ego Drive. It was a forerunner of many subsequent assessment tools.
I loved ideas that promised me a new and better way to do things, so I bought right into this deal with both feet. The General Sales Manager at Courtesy Chevrolet, in Seattle was Al Lizotte, a good friend to this day. He pooh-poohed the whole idea saying, "You can pack all that Empathy where the sun don't shine. Give me a guy with massive ego drive and he'll sell rings around all those bleeding hearts." It has been a source of nearly endless argument and enjoyment for us to this day.
Of late I've become less sure of my position, which is true in myriad instances. I see more and more salespeople with the empathy of a cod rolling over obstacles and market conditions and succeeding in spite of my belief system.
Is it remotely possible that I have been misinformed? Have I spent the past fifty years laboring under the delusion that Empathy is essential for sales success? I welcome your thoughts to either relieve me of my childlike belief, or reinforce it, whichever the case may be. Lay on.
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In my perspective, I think when people aren't conscious they can be sold almost anything by someone who knows how to "play the sales game." I recently wrote my own take on this subject (bit.ly/4UzUx). The question in my mind isn't so much what is "necessary" for a sale, as much as how does one go about it - AND - if the person walks away from the sale, are you OK with it? Or was it just a number on the way to the next? If empathy is a way to "manipulate" a person into buying then it is no better than anything else. Thanks for your thoughts and conversation. :-)
ReplyDeleteThe Billy Mays and Shamwow pitchmen succeed because they: 1.Irritatignly as they are, they get your attention among a flood of TV commercials and 2. They are pitching household items that offer compelling benefits at a low price that a reaasonable percentage of the mass audience will not be able to resist. Keep in mind mass advertising is a percentage game. So for all in the audience that think Billy Mays is a jerk, it doesn't take but a small percentage of, say Fox News viewership, to buy his product to net big dollars. You will never see Billy Mays selling big ticket items to a small targeted audience. You aren't misinformed, Hank. The fundamentals you believe in still apply, but just not at the low-brow mass advertising part of the spectrum.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Elizabeth. Your views as a professional hypnotist are very valuable. I appreciate your thoughts, even if I don't always completely understand them.
ReplyDeleteTom, I clearly understand and very badly want to believe in your proposition. It is true that a less intelligent and sophisticated buyer will need less understanding. What I can't understand is the success of people completely lacking empathy, such as Dan McCranie, past Vice President Sales of Cypress Semiconductor. Or his old boss, for that matter. In fact, in the top ranks of semiconductor sales, empathy seems the exception, rather than the rule.
ReplyDeleteAhhh, Hank. I continue to belive empathy -- which is simply "wearing the shoes of your customer," is still a valid sales tool...and given an even playing field aganst a competitor lacking empathy whose value proposition is no different than yours...I will put my money on you making the sales pitch with empathy every time. You allude to how some succeed in the high tech B2B world with an apparent lack of customer empathy. Yes, it's true that there are some very successful assholes lacking empathy who succeed (e.g. Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs to name a few) -- but for every one of them there are just as many who have succeeded and continue to do so because their business philosophy applies empathy -- not just to customers but the communities where their companies reside. Some of the past great captains of industry were known for their empathy -- e.g. Bill Hewlett, David Packard, Bob Noyce, Gordon Moore...as well as present ones, e.g. John Chambers, Aart de Geus, Sergey Brin, Larry Page. The "assholes" just seem to get more media attention (evidence potty mouth Carol Bartz, new Yahoo CEO). Keep the faith, Hank. Genuine Empathy comes across in sales pitches -- and from the CEO's bully pulpit -- and can give one that competitve edge when pitching against competitors with similar products and services who demonstrate total lack of empathy.
ReplyDeleteWell now, Tom, if there are both assholes and good guys making a ton, could it be that the governing personality dynamic is something other than empathy? Bill Hewlett is revered for his empathy, but is it that that made him a success? Could be, I guess.
ReplyDeleteWhat is this?? A late life crisis of confidence??? You know the answer to the question, and have professed it to be for all the years I have known you.
ReplyDeleteThe reality is that the general level of intelligence and self confidence in one's code of ethics has been deteriorating at an accelerating rate since WWII. The public education system has been usurped by trade unions and the quality of the product steadily declines. The role of religion in the culture of the nation is now in the process of becoming irrelevant, and with it goes the ethics of the culture.
The concepts of value and morality are changing from being guides to a lifetime, to being a code of behavior for the moment or situation, with delayed gratification a lost concept. The rate of personal savings in this nation was relatively steady until post Jimmy Carter, when it began to decline. It eventually approached zero approximately at the beginning of the current fiscal crisis. With credit cards that let you pay only a minimum amount regularly, you can purchase a lot of goods and services without the need for self discipline.
And that is why pitchmen do not need any empathy to successfully sell in these past thirty years. We shall see what the next two decades will bring.
Jeez, John. Don't hold it in. I happen to think that you're right on the money, but then you knew that. What you're saying needs to be said, just not by me.
ReplyDeleteJohn's perspective offers much I agree with, however, I believe he short changes the enduring value of empathy -- not just over the past 30 years but ever since our primitive ancestors began trading goods and services with each other.
ReplyDeleteEmpathy may not be essential to make sales...but it surely is (and will continue to be) a powerful sales tool against competitors devoid of it.
And Yes, Hank, both assholes and good guys succeed because of a lot of dynamics other than empathy swirling around them -- as well as being in the right place at the right time... but the assholes without empathy invariably end up winning ugly...and the good guys with empathy always win gracefully. I think I know which way you would like to win.
Sheesh, Tom. I didn't know how I wanted to win was at issue. I wasn't advocating a lack of empathy, merely observing it. You make excellent points. It's turning out a fun discussion, what?
ReplyDeleteHere's an extract of my take on the subject: Thank you for the thoughts though.
ReplyDeleteThe Secret of Sales Success
Before I reveal this secret no doubt you’re wondering why I am giving away material for FREE! The reason is quite simple… most sales people haven’t the skills to use it anyway!
The secret behind making huge number of sales is the ability to have EMPATHY with the customers you are selling to. Empathy is the ability to identify with another person’s feelings or to emotionally put yourself in their situation.
Sounds easy right? The first problem many sales people will face is that in order to ‘have’ or ‘show’ empathy then you have to have had those feelings yourself or else by definition you cannot be empathic. Unless you have been scolded by boiling water then you can not have empathy for someone who is experiencing the pain of being scolded because at best you can only be sympathetic.
read more?
http://www.saqqaragroup.co.uk/sales-persuasion-influence-strategies/page/8/
Thanks for your point of view, Gary. I don't know that this blog is the appropriate place for a commercial message for your site, but my readers are largely adult and will make their own determinations.
ReplyDeleteHank,
ReplyDeleteAlthough empathy is a good quality, if you are talking about putting deals together, I will take a salesperson with "a good pitch" every time. I firmly believe that when it comes to getting the business, there are far more high producers who are salespeople that may lack empathy but do a lot of business (albeit not always a lot of repeat business) because they have a good pitch , than there are successful salespeople who are empathetic but have poor pitches.
Empathy allows the salesperson to understand and focus on the customer's needs so empathy with the customer can certainly help a good salesperson to make a better pitch; but without taking strong action it doesn't matter. It may sound awful to some folks but "touchy feely" for most people only works for schmoozing, creating friends and feeling good. If a salesperson wants to get business today, they should focus on making a strong pitch.
Dave Doeleman
This opinion means a great deal coming from one of the finest salesmen and sales managers I have ever had the privilege to know. Thanks, Dave.
ReplyDeleteTo me, sales empathy means knowing what the prospect's hot buttons are and how they connect to the buying decision. Knowing how to push those buttons depends on the salesperson's personality and style. Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison may be jerks on a personal level but they know what the important buttons are in their particular market. Mostly they then use nicer sales people to push those buttons. Empathy = knowing the buttons... Sales = pushing the buttons.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Guze. I particularly like that bit about Empathy = knowing the buttons...Sales = pushing the buttons. I appreciate your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe "empathy" is the right term. I think its really about "Rapport". We need to have rapport with our prospects. That connection that allows a deeper level of communication to take place. Also the ability to lead prospects to where we want them to go.
ReplyDeletea basic element of persuasion is that your prospects will feel what you feel. They will unconsciously pick up on your emotional state and feel the same.
Empathy is not enough. Because empathy means feeling the same feelings your prospects have. If they are worried or anxious then you will feel the same if all you are after is empathy.
You need the ability to lead them into a state where they are ready to buy. And that usually means being devoid of fear and anxiety.
The ability to "inject others" with the enthusiasm and right feelings is crucial in sellling anything. Which would explain how some assholes do well.
Also we all have unconscious limitations or set-points that kick in like a thermostat and stop us going above or below our current level by sabotaging and boosting our performance as required.
That would also explain why some assholes do well they just have higher unconscious expectations.
Thanks, Brian. The words we use--not just the definitions, but the connotations--are pretty central to what we do, aren't they. I appreciate your sharing your well-stated viewpoint.
ReplyDeleteHank, the old joke/saw is, "The secret to sales is sincerity. Once you've learned to fake that the rest is easy." OK, more serious comment below:
ReplyDeleteIn fact, sympathy, empathy, ego drive, rapport, facilitating, shouting, threatening, acting dumb, acting smart, actual domain knowledge, etc. are all just tools in my box and the art is to use what you need to use when you need to. We see examples of totalitarian jerks being successful because the behavior that gets noted is their peaks of prickishness. I would bet that most all of them use all the tools in different proportions. I know for a fact that guys like Andy Grove, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison and TJ Rogers may be famous for their arrogance, but I know that they are full suck-ups when necessary.
The fact is, sometimes some people need to be TOLD what to do. Practically ordered. They just don't feel confident in their own decision power, and it is actually comforting for them to be ordered around, even if it's by their sales person. There are others who would just as soon punch you out given the same approach. I do a lot of international business and I have to say there are vast reaches of Asia and the Middle East in which some sort of touchy feely behavior would be seen as "blood in the water, time for dinner" (Korea, Israel)while others (Japan) need a very long term, empathetic approach.
So, sorry for the dissertation, but I would bet everyone on this chain actually practices something more like what I propose above.
Best,
Paul
I love the behaviors being "tools in your box," Paul. Every person you meet needs to be treated a bit differently than any other person you've met before. At least that's what I think. Thanks for your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteHank, for years you have taught the work of our mutual friend Bob Lefton, Effective Selling Through Psychology. Understanding the needs of the customer and providing solutions to their needs/desires is key to sales success. The centered Q4 dominant/warm approach is desired. However none of us are ever Q4 center. We're all over the quadrant. I agree is most of the contributors to this post. Empathy, understanding needs, wearing the customers needs, etc are key elements to successful selling and life in general. THANKS EL
ReplyDelete